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Marines cancel plans to have females perform pull ups

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  • Marines cancel plans to have females perform pull ups

    “The discussion to change the upper-body strength test for female Marines has been tabled for the time being, with no indication of when [or] if the conversation may resume,” said 1st Lt. Scott Villiard, a Training and Education Command spokesman in Quantico, Va., via email.

    Details of the plan to add pull-ups for women were outlined in a June 17 decision paper from TECOM. The document recommended instituting the plan in January, but no changes to the PFT have been made.

    The paper was a pre-decisional draft, Villiard said. TECOM officials declined to elaborate on why the plan was scuttled.

    Under the plan, the only way female Marines could earn a 100 percent score was if they tackled pull-ups. However, the flexed-arm hang — the current measure of upper-body strength for women — would have remained an option.

    The change would have allowed women to score up to 70 points for holding a flexed-arm hang. One pull-up, however, would be worth 75 points and each additional would be worth five. A perfect score would require six pull-ups. If a female opts for pull-ups but fails, she would be given time to recover and retry with the flexed-arm hang.

    “Recognizing that many female Marines may not be able to do pull-ups initially, retaining the [flexed-arm hang] albeit in a devalued manner is a good introductory measure,” stated the decision paper, which was prepared by Brian McGuire, the physical readiness programs officer for the Corps.

    Male Marines must perform at least three pull-ups for a minimum score of 15. They get five more points for each additional pull-up, which requires 20 for a perfect score.

    TECOM conducted research in 2011 at 12 locations across the Corps. A study of 318 female Marines found that on average, they could perform 1.63 pull-ups. More than 21 percent performed at least three, and 37 percent performed at least three when lower-body movement — a banned practice frequently known as “kip” — was allowed.

    TECOM officials recommended awarding 100 points for six pull-ups because that matched the capabilities of the top 10 percent of female Marines studied.

    The paper raised at least one concern, noting that female Marine PFT scores would likely dip in 2012 if the new test was adopted. However, that was expected to increase again after pull-ups and other strength training was incorporated into exercise programs. That was the result for men when dead-hang pull-ups were adopted in 1997.

    Despite the pull-up plan being put on hold, Villiard said, “All Marines are encouraged to enhance their training to include functional upper-body strength training.”
    Looks like they did the right thing to me.

  • #2
    Originally posted by BootCamp4Me View Post
    Looks like they did the right thing to me.
    Apparently your view is against popular opinion. To put it politely, let's just say the news got less than favorable reviews...

    Comment


    • #3
      lol.. my point of view is often in conflict with popular opinion.

      I think many of the people who have a problem with it ground their opinions in false reasoning. Or they are Marines who think its unfair they have to do pull ups while females dont. BTW, doing a flexed arm hang for more than a minute is not as easy as some think lol

      Contrary to popular belief, the point of the PFT is to determine physical fitness. It is not gauge strength.

      A person who can do 4 pulls ups yet runs much faster than another who can do 20 pull ups can still score higher on the fitness exam... so brute strength does not decide the victor.

      Also, to simply state that "everyone gets the same treatment" would be to ignore reality in that females bodies are not made the same. Females hips are wider and legs are typically shorter... so to score then the same based on run times doesn't take into fact simple biology.

      Females also do not have testosterone... a chemical that increases bone mass, enhance muscle development, strength or endurance.... males have 10x more in their bodys than females do.

      So to treat everyone the same.. you would in fact be giving females a disadvantage when it comes time for advancement. This reason in addition to the ban on females in combat units would effectively eliminate almost any chance of a female geting into the higher pay grades.

      The fitness test is based on being fit. It is not a run test, a crunches test or pull up test.

      The current system, in my opinion... is fair.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by muffe View Post
        Apparently your view is against popular opinion. To put it politely, let's just say the news got less than favorable reviews...

        Registered just to post and point out that you linked to a lovely picture of a female doing... not a pull-up. That would be a chin-up, and is much easier to do.

        That said, women do have a harder time building muscle mass than their male counterparts. And they already have an easier time on account of that. Honestly, males and females need to be held to the same standard for the same jobs. If that means women do not qualify for certain jobs so be it. If it turned out women were less intelligent than men, would you want their medical schools grading them on a curve because of it? I doubt you'd want a female operating on you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Marines can can have their hands underhand or overhand.. it makes no difference.

          That said. your logic is flawed.

          1. We are talking about proven facts not hypothetical situations (females genetically being less intelligent)

          2. Holding them to the same standards as I stated above would not being fair due to a genetic difference. If the argument is about equality then no reasonable person would try to argue that males and females strength is on equal footing..

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          • #6
            I was not aware that marines called chin-ups pull-ups. That is very interesting. So these women can't do two chin-ups? This is worse than I thought..

            The hypothetical was there only to show that double standards are bad. Not good. Bad. Holding any two things to the same standard is not unfair when they are trying to accomplish the same goals.

            Comparing a Prius to an F-250 when talking about hauling capacity is not unfair when you're looking for a vehicle for the sole purpose of hauling shit.

            Comment


            • #7
              I knew many Marines who could just do the minimum 4 pull ups. Not all were big bad asses...I do not see what jobs a Marines who can only do 4 pulls ups can do compared to a female Marine who can do a flexed arm hand for 1 minute can not do.

              The only jobs they CAN NOT do are the ones forbidden to them.. such as infantry.

              An f250 can hual 10,000 lbs while a prius can barley go with the 4 people inside lol.... not please tell me what jobs a male who did 4 pull ups can do that a female who can do a flexed arm hang for 45 seconds can not do.

              Comment


              • #8
                But I think the point is that the proposed standard was scaled to accommodate the obvious genetic differences in women, and yet it still got shot down.

                1 female pull up = 15 male pull ups

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by muffe
                  But I think the point is that the proposed standard was scaled to accommodate the obvious genetic differences in women.

                  1 female pull up = 15 male pull ups
                  But if the point about changing it is that they should be treated equal... then how is scoring them 3 to 1 going to make things "equal?

                  It would be done just for show or the illusion of equality.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BootCamp4Me View Post
                    But if the point about changing it is that they should be treated equal... then how is scoring them 15 to 1 going to make things "equal?

                    It would be done just for show or the illusion of equality.
                    Fixed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sorry, I thought you were saying that the points would be 15 to 1 as in males do 3 pull ups for 15 points and females would do 1 to get 5 points.... thats where i got 3 to 1... I got mixed up.

                      But my "it would be done just for show or the illusion of equality." is still valid.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just wanted to add a side note. Fair and Equal are two very different things.

                        Equal: Everyone gets the same thing.
                        Fair: Everyone gets what they need.

                        A child who gets the special privilege to use an elevator installed in his school because he is wheelchair bound is not equal, but is certainly fair.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by muffe View Post
                          Just wanted to add a side note. Fair and Equal are two very different things.

                          Equal: Everyone gets the same thing.
                          Fair: Everyone gets what they need.

                          A child who gets the special privilege to use an elevator installed in his school because he is wheelchair bound is not equal, but is certainly fair.
                          I'm not even sure I agree with that. If an elevator is installed at a school to accommodate wheelchair bound students, it is not fair to not allow all students to use it. You've allowed the disabled kids to have access to the same things but without it being equal nor fair, which is what allowing females to opt out of this is doing as well. They are not being treated equal and it is not fair.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The kid with the disability needs the elevator. The other kids can suffice without it, to them it's a luxury not a necessity. Perhaps it wasn't the best analogy, but I was trying to make that comment in general, not specific to this thread. But take a second look at that same statement as in favor of your argument not against it.

                            Scenario A We can set the standards equal: 20 pullups male or female for a perfect score of 100.
                            Scenario B We can set the standards fair: 20 pullups male / 6 pullups female for a perfect score of 100. (scaled for obvious differences in male and female bodies)

                            What we have here is the case where the Marines (against popular opinion) elected neither A nor B.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Wheels needs it. I understand that. And while it gives him the opportunity to have access to the same things, things are still not equal; one now has something the other does not. And it isn't fair for.. well, for the same reasons.

                              The only fair and equal way is to remove it from both and either replace it with something that is fair for both or to hold both to the same standard if it is for the same position. The problem with that, obviously, is that the bigger issue isn't with the pull ups, it's the fact that women can't compete physically with men. Your argument is that it doesn't matter nine times out of ten if the man in Position A can do 20 pull ups and the girl in Position A can't, but if that's the case, why have the test at all?


                              Edit: We agree that it isn't equal, so I won't bother pasting the definition for that. However, "fair" is what we don't seem to agree on so here we go.

                              "marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism <a very fair person to do business with>"

                              "conforming with the established rules"

                              It is, by definition, unfair to hold two groups of people to two different sets of rules, even if you are attempting to make it fair. The very basis of the word fair is that you have to be impartial and without favoritism and everyone has to conform to the rules, not to make a separate set for a different subset of people involved.
                              Last edited by Anthem; January 17th, 2012, 18:51. Reason: To win.

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